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I can understand and appreciate some restaurants offering a no children policy. Who would want to hear the sound of babies crying or kids running up and down while trying to have an intimate dinner?

I think this trend is disgusting. Everyone is originally a kid and to forbid them in a restaurant is sad. It speaks volumes as to what is wrong with a society when someone has to explain to a youngster they aren't allowed to eat at a particular place simply because they are a "child" no matter how well-behaved they are. I think this falls into the same deranged category as people who do not allow children at weddings...

I hate to say it, but as the stepmom to four I can understand this policy that some restaurants are adopting. When our kids were careful to take them to age-appropriate places so that they didn't disturb other diners. Other parents, however, are not always so considerate. When my husband and I make the effort to get a sitter and treat ourselves to a quiet night out I don't want to be disturbed by other people's kids.

Ooops, I messed that post up (above).

"When our kids were YOUNG we were careful to take them to age-appropriate places" is how that previous post should read. Sorry!

I think this is becoming more of a trend, perhaps partly because of less discipline by parents in restaurants -- I have been out to a nice brunch in Brooklyn and appalled by kids running around the restaurant, being really loud, and basically the waitstaff having to shepherd them because the parents won't do a thing. That's a big turnoff for other diners, and I can see why restaurants would want to adopt a no-child policy -- maybe you can't tell by looking at them in line whether the kids will be reasonably disciplined or not. Don't get me wrong, I have sympathy for the difficulties, but when I was a kid, though we went to restaurants rarely, there was a code of conduct that we were very much expected to follow from a very young age!

I have no problem with restaurants restricting children. Some places should be adult spaces. Yes, children should be given the opportunity to learn how to behave in restaurants with tablecloths and real china by eating there on occasion. That does not mean that every restaurant should be open to children at any time. And, yes, many children are well-behaved in restaurants, but there's no way to tell which child will be, and sometimes even the best-behaved child has a meltdown or just gets overtired.

BTW, no one has to explain to a child why they're not allowed to eat at a certain restaurant. "It's for adults" should be sufficient--kids hear that all day long about a myriad of topics. Should children be allowed into bars and dance clubs too?

Although I too was a child once, there is a time and a place for everything. I sincerely hope that when I was a child my parents were not tasteless enough to bring me to a restaurant that would not be appropriate - I have had some of my special-occasion meals ruined by neighboring parents who have a serious sense of entitlement on behalf of their children. Having children entails plenty of challenges - one of those is understanding that you can't always do whatever you want and whatever you did before you had an extra person to be responsible for.

pinky41 - I also agree that this liberal parenting style is out of control. I have seen far too many parents allow their children to be incredibly disruptive (maybe we live in the same part of BKLYN), at points just smiling along thinking its cute. Perhaps everyone else does share your love of your child (you should hope not). I think this is the predominant disgusting trend re: children.

Restaurants have to do this because parents let their children run wild as if they were at home. I had a meal out several years ago where the parents allowed their children to stand on chairs, run around the floor, scream, etc., etc. The parents had no regard for other diners or for the fact that their kids really weren't safe. If I were the restaurant I would have worried about liability, it was that bad. When my dining companion mentioned something to the waitstaff within the parents' earshot, we got treated as though we were anti-child. If the kids are mature for their age and can behave, it's fine. If they aren't, there is always Chuck E. Cheese.

I agree with Pencils and amt230!

And I was one of those people that didn't allow kids at our wedding reception. I didn't want a rush out the door at bedtime- everyone seemed to enjoy their night off too!

A no-child policy is fine by me...I love my child but have NO problem letting other diners have a childfee experience. My thought is that many of them are thrilled to not be tripping over spilled cheerios as well, whether or not they are parents of children, small or otherwise! I've actually discovered that my inlaws are the worst...they wanted to have a special family dinner at an excellent restaurant here in PDX. We unequivocally said NO. We didn't want to force our (usually well-behaved but you-never-know-for-how-long) 2 1/2 year old on to what may be another diner's only opportunity to enjoy their dinner at a place that would easily top $125 per head (hey, it is Portland, not NYC!). It was something that we finally had to say we wouldn't discuss anymore...either pick a more appropriate place, plenty of which are "nice" but still family friendly, or we'll see you at our home afterwards for dessert!

Dear MK Mom,

After reading your post, I must tell you that I now have the world's biggest mom-crush on you. Thank you for taking responsibility for the happiness of your child, your fellow diners and yourself as a parent.

Two pats on the back.

I agree. Totally appropriate to restrict children at certain restaurants or at least certain times. A year ago Valentines we (when I was very pregnant) we went to a tiny intimate and expensive restaurant with only 10 tables. One table had a screaming infant the other a very loud 8 or 10 year old. We were very disappointed, as we were looking forward to a quiet, romantic evening -- one of our last before baby -- and it was anything but. IMHO get a baby sitter (like your fellow diners did) or stay home!

I don't have a problem with kid-free restaurants, either. We love taking our little guys out to eat, and we're doubly lucky in that (1) they usually behave well, and (2) there are a number of child-friendly places in our city that also serve excellent food. But we also like going out for grown-up meals in places that don't offer booster seats. I have to admit I'd be kind of choked if I'd gone to the expense of hiring a sitter, only to have to endure someone else's unmanaged, noisy kids.

Child-free restaurants don't bother me. I don't want to be disturbed by horrible, poorly behaved childred when I am out for a nice dinner. Children need to learn how to behave at white tablecloth restaurants but they don't need to do at special occasion places.

I have no problem with this either. Although, there are very well behaved kids out there who would not be a problem, you can't really tell which are which at the door. We had the misfortune of being at a very upscale winery for a romantic dinner about a year ago and there were two boys (about 12 years old) who were RUNNING through the restaurant, yelling and throwing things at each other. They were banging into waiters and the backs of patrons chairs, one lady spilled her wine on herself when the back of her chair was banged into. The parents did NOTHING. They sat in their chairs blissfully unaware. They were the only people in that restaurant who were not bothered by it. It's really unfair to ruin the dinners of all the other customers.
Unfortunately, I've noticed that this style of parenting is on the rise. So, ultimately, I understand this policy.

When I go out for a nice dinner, I ask my mom to babysit. Hubby and I don't take our tot to fancy-pants restaurants in San Francisco; we just don't. I think it's on parents not to take their kids to fine dining places or to movies, and I have seen parents with very young children at R-rated movies. The kids were so disruptive that people walked out and went to complain.

If you have kids, take them to a place that's family-friendly. Those places WANT your business. The other places have already decided they don't want or need your business.

This situation is typical of everything: a few bad apples spoils it for the rest of us good apples. C'est la vie! There's really no way to make those bad apples accountable in public, so restaurants have to refuse them. Life goes on. The good apples will adapt!

"The parents did NOTHING. They sat in their chairs blissfully unaware. They were the only people in that restaurant who were not bothered by it."

This happened to me this weekend, but it was at a toy store (Talbots Toyland in San Mateo). This is a toy store meant for play, but the mom was sitting in her chair so checked out that she ignored her three-year-old's tantrums and fighting with other kids around the train table.

Unfortunately, this "style" of parenting in some cases is due to exhaustion or stress. I'm not condoning it, but I do see the glazed-over eyes on moms who have a newborn and a 3 tot; they don't get any help or breaks, and they are just really broken.

If your kids are 12 and running around, well, that's just bad parenting. Not exhaustion.

I would agree and say that it is fine to have no child policies. Here in SLC we have a few nice places to eat out, and i do not take my child there.

Just as a side note. We do have a 21 and older movie night on friday. Which I love. No kids/ tweens/ teens laughing and talking all through my opening night movie.

I don't understand how it's any more appropriate to say you don't want to be disturbed by children, than to say you don't want to be disturbed by a stroke victim's speech, or a mentally handicapped person's volume, or an elderly person's chewing. Age should be a protected status on both ends of the spectrum.

I think it's completely appropriate, especially since they made it their responsibility to spell the rule out explicitly, so there are no surprises. I am a parent and I choose very carefully where I take my child to eat out and where I don't. I would not take her to a fancy formal restaurant, especially in the evening. Kids are kids, and they need to run, play and be crazy. And we have to respect other adults' desire to be out and not hear someone else's kids kicking and screaming and jumping around. I think sometimes parents tend to forget that mostly their kids are cute only to them, and not so cute to others.

“You don’t have children, you don’t know how difficult it is” is not an appropriate excuse for lazy parents who let there charming little monster ruin everyone’s dining experience. Sure, I don’t have children yet, but I do respect people around me as will my children in the years to come. Get a babysitter, it will work out to cost the same as what you’re paying for his meal that only ends up throwing around. Mmm… most of this may have been directed at my one of my sister in laws & child at our wedding- the thrown food, we actually paid for. Not to mention table decorations, messing up the sound desk, interrupting the speeches etc. But nice to vent in an anonymous environment!

Sorry, I spell checked! That should have read:

"You don't have children, you don't know how difficult it is" is not an appropriate excuse for lazy parents who let there charming little monster ruin everyone's dining experience. Sure, I don't have children yet, but I do respect people around me as will my children in the years to come. Get a babysitter, it will work out to cost the same as what you're paying for his meal that only ends up throwing around. Mmm... most of this may have been directed at my one of my sister in laws & child at our wedding- the thrown food, we actually paid for. Not to mention table decorations, messing up the sound desk, interrupting the speeches etc. But nice to vent in an anonymous environment!

Yes, in a perfect world, age on both ends of the spectrum should be respected; however, it isn't perfect, and neither are parents. We're human, and we certainly can't control everything our kids blurt out. There's a huge difference between a neighborhood eatery and a fine dining restaurant where the dinner service is hours-long and runs late into the night. Kids have to be in bed anyway and shouldn't be dragged out and forced to sit a white tablecloth establishment after 8 PM. If you do that, you're setting your kids up for lousy behavior. And yes, it is rude to take kids to those places. Would you take your children under 5 to Gary Danko? Never mind they don't have booster seats...! My answer is no way.

No, age should absolutely not be protected status on both ends of the spectrum. To compare an elderly person, who has been an active part of society for more years than all of us and is capable of making responsible decisions to a child, who at certain points is limited in her/his form of expression to screaming/crying and cannot possibly comprehend social responsibility to the same level as an adult is just plain ridiculous. And to compare children to an elderly person who may chew loud for whatever reason you are suggesting is equally ridiculous - there is a reason there are already over 20 posts here discussing people's experiences with children and NONE about loudly chewing elderly people (I'll give you that it isn't the topic of the post, but I would defy you to find anyone who thinks loud chewing is as much a threat to their special occasion meal). Because the issue of loud children is a reality, while your suggestions plainly are not.

It appears you have some contention with the idea that children are being discriminated against or shunned for, plainly put, being children. I would never want children to stop being curious and expressive and playful. But, it's also reasonable to find a responsible time and place for children to do this. It's about respect for other people.

I agree with the many comments above that parents of disruptive kids need to take more responsibility for their children's behavior, whether it's a fine dining restaurant or a family friendly one. In fact, I've been turned off from some family friendly places because many parents think that type of restaurant gives them license to let their kids run free.
What I don't get is why restaurant managements in general aren't just talking to the parents themselves when something happens to solve the problem. Disruption is disruption. If some loud drunk who was three sheets to the wind at a table was disturbing diners, management would probably intervene.
In regards to the upfront no kids policy, at least the restaurant is honest about what kind of atmosphere they want to foster. The only part that feels weird to me is that it's a blanket policy in which the kids are judged before they've even done anything.
BTW, is "no children" all minors including teens? under 12? under 8?

i think what this topic shows is the need for an "in between" dining experience. it seems as though the only alternative to "nice" restaurants is something like mcDonald's, Chili's, etc. That is, the parents have to settle for less-than-stellar food so that the kids can be loud and crazy with their chicken nuggets and crayons.

why should a "nice" setting, and children, be mutually exclusive? why can't an appropriate place be a relaxing dining experience for parents as well as fun and child-friendly for the kids? perhaps some of these higher-end restaurants with "no children" policies should also have "yes children"days where families can come in a little earlier than the usual dinnertime and the clientele is all families.

Ive just cancelled a restaurant booking tonight because I cant find anyone to babysit my daughter. The thing is though, I dont think banning children is appropriate but there is no way to ensure that people are respectful to other patrons. I had a feeling my 9 month old would make noise, so I decided not to go out.

What is frustrating to me is I try to be respectful and not take her along, but I have been bothered more by adults than children when out & about. There is nothing more annoying than arranging & paying for a babysitter, going out and having an ADULT, repeatedly back their chair into you, talk on their mobile for 80% of the time, get really drunk and talk at top volume etc etc.

Sorry, Selena, but you're not going to see that at places like The French Laundry. The only children I've ever seen there were teenagers. One time there was a dinner patron (a woman) who got drunk and was being disruptive. She broke a glass. She was dropping F-bombs so loudly, but the staff did not ask her to leave or shut up. Her party left eventually, and the entire room (this is one room upstairs) applauded after her exit.

But that was an unusual event. So the staff made it appear.

There's a bit of difference in what adults will tolerate. Some people just tolerate other adults better and find children's high-pitched screams and cries intolerable. Honestly, there's something about those cries that make you squirm and want to react--this is nature.

There are other "in between" places that do have family nights. Well, I'm saying for the Bay Area, but you have to look, too.

I am all about "adult only" places. On those special nights were me and my husband get a chance to go to dinner, just the two of us, we purposely find places that are not kid friendly.

As a mom, I don't have a problem with this at all. My husband and I once tried to have a very rare grown-up date night, got the sitter (not cheap where we live), dressed up, and when we got to the normally young-adult hip high-end restaurant, we ended up seated next to a family with three squawking kids roughly our son's age. I sympathize with the family but we had to ask to be reseated. The whole point was to get away from our own squawker at home. So if there was an adults-only restaurant around, I'd have no problem patronizing it for "date night."

This has been so interesting! I noticed a couple of posts wondering why management or waitstaff don't intervene when unruly patrons (whether they be drunk adults, irresponsible parents, or crying children) are present. I think it is mostly because they have policies preventing that.

Scenario: 5:45 pm, grocery store. Every lane: backed up. You: the four things not currently in your fridge that will help to cobble together a decent dinner. The express lane: open with one person waiting in line. The customers in the express lane: the one in front of you has a similar number of items and certainly under the 9-item limit. The customer in front of that person? They have already obliviously unloaded one half of their 73-item cart on to the belt...no apology to those behind them, no comment to the clerk that oops they didn't realize this was express lane, etc.

Have you ever asked the clerk why they don't say something when they see this customer coming? It is because they CAN'T! They are forbidden, by management, to comment. If you as a patron want to start a war of words you can knock yourself out. Other than that, it's too bad!

Just thought this might help underscore why some of us have been subjected to loud folks, children or otherwise.

honestly, there is no way to ensure people are respectful of the peace desired by other diners....

I've had a couple meals made much less pleasant by young children, but we were in a diner, which IMO is an appropriate 'family' environement.

the several times our meals were absolutely ruined by other patrons in expensive restaurants it was due to the adults behavior (ex. loud, yelling, drunk table of 8 on valentines day in a 20 seat romantic restaurant). we have yet to be irritated by children in high end establishments.

I hate to say it, but I suspect it is illegal to have a restaurant open to the public where they refuse to allow children into the establishment... to me, it sounds as if it topples over the line of age discrimination.

This is what we'’ve come to. Inattentive parents are one issue. The definition of an "Inappropriate for Children" location is another issue. Restaurant management unwilling to deal with disruptive patrons is a further issue. They’re issues because either, no one is willing to confront anyone anymore or… we're being overly judgmental.

You’ve got to know it’s impossible to "educate" every parent on being inattentive or what’s considered appropriate. Not everyone is going to share your particular view of what’s the “right” way to parent. You’re never going to get everyone to agree. What to do…let’s blame the restaurant.

If only every restaurant was run by owners/managers willing to tell a parent their children running around the restaurant is a safety hazard to wait staff carrying hot, breakable and sharp items. That’s pipedream. Confrontation is bad for business. So let’s all cheer the one restaurant willing to post its no-child policy. What a cop out.

As someone who’s been in the restaurant business for decades, the whole thing is disgusting. Having taken part on restaurant blogs which are very anti-children, it’s clear there are a lot of people with outlandishly judgmental views and myopic mindsets. There are loud, obnoxious, unruly, disruptive people at restaurants ALL THE TIME. It’s a fact of life and everyone just deals with it. Parents with children are no more or less a problem than everyone else.

Ask yourself why so many people have no problem being mad at parents but have nothing to say about the table of girls dressed like strippers, the couple clearly having a fight, the older guy that’s speaking too loudly because he can’t hear, the drunk guys whooping over the big contract, or the woman with horrible body odor? Maybe we should post signs at every restaurant declaring they now have a no loud, stinky, celebrating, drunk, rude, poorly dressed people policy. Would that make you happy?

Admit it, it does. I wonder how quickly everyone that’s not white would be denied entrance. Okay, that’s going to far, right? Right? So who’s the judge? Me? You? Are you telling yourself you’re okay being judgmental because you’re not THAT judgmental? Really? Tell us again how you really feel about those "horrible" parents. Are you willing to walk over and say something to them? I didn’t think so. Someone needs to get over themselves.

My first son couldn't be babysat because he would need a trained nurse, because of his tracheostomy (ie. he could have easily died). We usually suctioned him outside though.

Not that I could afford the restaurants that ban kiddos.

What if it was an adult with special needs though?

...BUT, there is no excuse for letting your kids run around. It's rude.

Well said JustPuked

This is a reflection of a society-wide problem where people feel entitled to do whatever they want wherever they want, especially if they are paying customers. You can't rely on the courtesy or good sense of anyone so draconian measures are taken which punish everyone.

This applies to cell phones being used in movie theaters, parents who let their kids run wild in the type of restaurant, and people who smoke without regard for the people around them.

I don't think this is disgusting. I think it's a reflection of the society we earn when the individual is taught he or she is the center of the universe and entitled to do whatever makes him or her happy no matter who they put out to get what they want.

If you hate this, the best thing you can do is be a better person in public and think about how your actions affect others. I'd wager my life savings that no one will be introspective or self-aware enough to see that they are part of the problem.

When I worked for a large Boston-area theatre company we had a "Babes-in-Arms" policy: No children under the age of five were allowed into the theatre. This was clearly stated in our literature and our staff was well-versed in the policy, should anyone ask. For those people who did ask, overall they were very understanding.

However, I did have an occasion to ask a couple to leave. They brought their four-month old infant with them to the theatre. I explained that the baby would not be allowed into the theatre, and that they needed to make a decision about how they wanted to handle it. They argued that since their seats were in the back row they could easily step out if the baby became fussy, and besides "We've taken her to the movies and she's slept right through."

Well, I weighed the problem over in my mind. Two upset parents who had to take their four-month old home, or 833 upset other patrons, who paid upwards of $40 for their tickets, angered when the baby started crying. I think you know which side I came down on.

I get it. It sucks when you can't bring your kid with you everywhere, but sometimes you just need to say no - just in case. Perhaps the child would have slept through the entire performance (gunshots included), but on the off chance that she wouldn't I had to take into consideration the large number of other people who would have been put out.

And yes, there are a million other reason why people might not enjoy the theatre - the guy who won't stop coughing, the lady who forgets to turn off her cell phone, the couple who whispers throughout the show - and I heard all about it, trust me. But since I can reasonably expect these people to understand the effect their actions are having on those around them, I am willing to trust that they will do their best to control their behavior. Children often cannot, so for that reason I agree that there is a time and place for children, and its does not include all times and all places.

Just Puked- I think you may be going a little too far here, aren't you yourself being judgemental of people who want to have a nice experience at an expensive restaurant? I too work at a restaurant, and believe me I have dealt with all sorts of disruptive patrons, not just children. The issue with children is that they are not responsible for themselves, their parents should be teaching them manners. On a related note, I have noticed a lot of the children who are disruptive at my restaurant are the ones whose parents have them there until ten o'clock at night. It makes me feel so bad for the child, who obviously needs to be in bed. Kids need their sleep!

I think this is a great policy. If you want to bring your children out to eat go to a different restaurant, but when you and your significant other want to enjoy a quiet peaceful night out you have an option where you don't have to worry about sitting next to someone else's screaming child while you are paying a babysitter to watch yours.
People pay a premium to watch movies at the ArcLight in LA for shows that are 21 and older.

The difference between the US and Europe on this issue is huge. In Europe, it is common for children to dine with their parents, even at the best restaurants. We recently ate in the cafe section of the Kursaal Restaurant (which has a Michelin star) in San Sebastian, Spain. We decided to have an early lunch (well, early by Spanish standards, 1pm) as we were eating with our 9 month old daughter, to minimize disruption to other diners. We need not have worried. We were the first table seated. By the time we left, over half the tables had children aged between about 6 months and four years. There was no crying, screaming, shouting, running around from the children (nor the parents). At one table, the parents asked the server to heat up a jar of baby food. It was returned to the table, not only heated, but served in a very stylish asymetrical soup bowl, that the restaurant used to serve its own dishes in. I regretted having fed our daughter before we went out to eat!

Wow, I wish there were more "adult-only" restaurants in the Minneapolis area (maybe I'm just not aware of them). I have to say that I get pretty irritated with parents that let their kids be disruptive any place, but I do agree that there is a time and place for that. If I go to Famous Dave's or something, I am not going to let it bother me - I am setting myself up for lots of kids and lots of noise! But kids should not be allowed at candle-lit white-linen restaurants for obvious reasons. Besides, those are not the types of places that kids like to go, so they are GOING to be more anxious and disruptive.

My dad and step mom are some of these obnoxious parents. Since my brother, stepbrothers and I are grown they decided to adopt two babies and then got pregnant. Granted, 3 kids within three years of one another in age is a living hell.

When we go out to eat as a family by brothers (biological and step) are so embarrassed because the little kids 3, 4, & 5 run around like monsters at the best parts of the meal and ruin any time we have to have a conversation with our parents as adults. The worst part is they always choose nice restaurants because we are rarely together. The icing on the cake is the other restaurant patrons think the kids are OURS because we seem to be the more stereotypical child rearing age.

I actually appreciate that any restaurant would let me know they don't want kids there rather than not letting me know and then giving looks or bad service or what have you.

Justpuked, your logic is faulty. Are you saying that children should be allowed at restaurants because adults behave badly too? What is this, equal opportunity shitty behaviour? If one segment of the population does something obnoxious, does that mean we should obnoxiousness to reign supreme? I don't think so.

I think it's fine that restaurants put a no-children policy in place, but I much prefer restaurants like Nobu or Mozza who encourage families in the earlier hours. That seems like a win-win for everyone.

If we are hankering to go somewhere nice and need to bring our son, we go early. We also go out more in the summer, when outdoor tables are an option. There are definitely certain restaurants where we would not bring our son, out of politeness, but you risk a lot of ill will by legislating that. Restaurant bans on children have gone too far. There is a bakery/coffee shop here in Chicago that put up a sign about children. On the face of it, the owner was asking "children of all ages to use inside voices." But once articles came out about the place and he got letters of support, the crazy anti-child propaganda in the windows got completely out of hand. It was like "move to the suburbs already." "Take your kids to McDonald's." Are you kidding me? This is a place that sells cake and ice cream.

But I think it is not OK to ban children outright. Learning how to behave in public is a process. Where exactly are children supposed to learn if they are not allowed anywhere? Eating meals together has always been part of what families and societies do together. Banning children is a huge disconnect. If our son is being disruptive, we leave. Do some parents not intervene appropriately? Sure. That's life. Dinner can be disrupted for any number of reasons, but that is the risk you take when you eat in a public place. That is why I think the analogy about babies in plays or movies is irrelevant; the expectation is totally different in a quiet theater, and these are primarily intellectual experiences for adults. Eating is communal.

I also think it is ridiculous to insist that all parents start eating at McDonald's once they have a baby. I agree with the poster who wrote that the expectations in Europe are very different -- restaurants are actually much more family friendly there. Developing your palate and eating normal, healthy, flavorful foods is a kind of literacy that other cultures respect and understand.

And if this is the place to vent about disruptive social behavior, I'd say cellphones have ruined just about every kind of social experience for me, from movies to operas to restaurants, to coffee shops, which are the worst. I can't really think of a time my dinner has been "ruined" by a child.

Mia Kepia, it's inappropriate to exclude ALL parents with children just to make sure you exclude the "bad" parents with misbehaving children. Restaurants are public places. If it's open to the public...it's open to the public. Period. Just as we don't block all cell phones signals in Movie Theaters to keep rude folks from talking during the performance because it would also block the 911 call from the guy having a heart attack. We don't exclude all old people from airports because they walk slow and might keep us from reaching our flight. We don't ban all adults from blogging because some might be pedophiles on the prowl. Discrimination is too easily justified in all its forms. No matter how elegant the argument for ensuring polite behavior a particular discriminatory policy is, it's still discrimination.

Further, the definition of "polite behavior" will always be open to interpretation. As linlex says, it's not an issue at even the swankiest restaurants in Europe, or Asia for that matter, why is it an issue here? As a side note for Splaine, my relatives in SF don’t sleep until past 1 am on a regular basis (restaurant business) and their kids are up until 11 pm everyday. They live their lives on a different clock. The problem with an observation like yours concerning keeping kids up late is you're judging a situation you don't know. …and that’s my point about how we’ve become a society of judgementalist.

As for me judging people who want to get away from parents and their kids, not in the least. To each their own. Just as I wouldn't judge someone for never wanting to sit next to whoever is their definition of “them”. The person with the exclusionary view just shouldn't expect society to cater to their particular bias. If you don't like being disturbed by children, get up and leave. Expecting the restaurant to kick out or exclude parents on the chance they might disturb you is unrealistic.

There are MANY places where children are not welcome: construction sites, air traffic control towers, plane cockpits, most adult workplaces (especially those that expect their workers to actually do some work and are fearful of injury lawsuits), violent movies, pornographic movies, adult live theater, better restaurants, etc.

I don't understand people who feel that children should be invited and welcomed EVERYWHERE. They are inconveniencing many other adults and often putting the child and others at risk. How selfish!

Jerry Steinberg
Founding Non-Father of NO KIDDING!
The international social club for childless and childfree couples and singles
www.nokidding.net; info@nokidding.net